I don't normally do this, but this FB thread had some good lively discussion. It is an excellent example of how our gun debate has evolved in the public arena. Some of it is insightful, some of it not so much. Below is Seven Bates' thoughtful response to the gun thread on his FB site after he posted this cartoon ....
The comments below are from Seven. I encourage you to click on the links.
Let me end by saying that any student who has a paper to do and starts with Seven's commentary here (and the links) is off to a good start. He raises some good points, and presents us with some thoughtful questons.
The comments below are from Seven. I encourage you to click on the links.
Wow, I posted a funny picture the other day and the resulting thread had some fun.
Thanks to everyone who was level headed and factual here. The misinformation and bias in this topic is thick and I think we should talk about that. We have 300+ million guns in America. The vast majority of the firearms however are handguns and non hunting/sport weapons. That means they're self defense weapons. Having said that, the reasons people keep them are irrelevant; they're just guns. We have something called "gun culture" in America. It's not unique to our country, but our particular brand of it is rather defined. I'm a firearms enthusiast. I like all kinds of guns, and even the type that really have no other purpose than blowing human beings (or zombies) to pieces. I grew up in a gun culture, much like many of our friends who grew up with guns. Always had them around, and was taught how to use them. All the same experiences that people keep referencing, I experienced as well; the guns were safe because we kept them locked up, or we knew how dangerous they were, so they were respected.
In the end, none of this matters to anyone killed or injured by gun violence.
It doesn't matter that a law abiding, careful and respectful person takes the time and effort to obey the law and teach their families to respect guns. Their diligence is an enriching aspect of our American gun culture, but their avoidance of accidents has little to do with how people use guns when they're committing crimes. Why? Because there are two types of gun crimes: passionate and premeditated.
Crimes of passion with a gun typically involve situations where someone decides that shooting another person is a natural escalation to an altercation. Sure, the line between a crime of passion and self defense exists, and it's well defined within our legal system, but make no mistake; a lot of people die because someone used a gun in a heated situation and they had alternatives. Think of all the robberies where someone got shot by a criminal who just wanted to steal something. This is common. Premeditated gun crimes are where someone just decides they're going to kill. It doesn't matter how many they kill - they just plan it out, and they kill.
The argument people go back and forth on, is whether a gun is just a tool that can be used for violence like many other items or if the gun creates more lethal scenarios because of its availability. Are gun bans the answer? I don't want them to be. I'd like it if our entire society handled conflict differently, because our violent nature seems like a pretty serious problem. We kill a lot of people.
Unlike Steve Nuckles though (see: above thread), I actually back up my stats gladly. Here:
- America currently averages 14,500 murders a year. Of those, 9,000-11,000 are gun deaths. We have over 300 million guns for a population of over 300 million. That's about 70% of the murders being performed with a gun.
- The UK averages 800 murders a year, with about 50 a year from guns. They have a population of 60 million. Handguns are banned in the UK, and rifle or shotgun ownership requires a lot of registration and paperwork. There are about 3.4 million guns in the UK. That's about 7% of the murders being performed with a gun with an average of 4 murders performed with a handgun per year.
- Japan has about 650 murders a year. They average 37 gun homicides a year. Japan's population is about 125 million. Handguns are completely banned in Japan, and shotguns or rifles are strongly regulated. There are about 700k guns in Japan, most of which are shotguns. That's about 6% of the murders being performed with a gun. Handguns averaging between 0 and 1 deaths per year as the tool used.
Look at all those numbers!! Am I appealing to statistics? No, because I'm going to simplify this for you instead of trying to hide behind large and confusing numbers.
Now obviously, the UK and Japan have:
- A lot of guns in their country.
- People who choose to purchase guns for home protection and self defense.
- Hunting/sporting firearms enthusiasts.
- Criminals.
So if we follow the logic of the argument: "Guns don't kill people; people kill people", then the UK and Japan should have an equal percentage of murder, by guns, if their gun bans were lifted and their citizens owned as many guns per citizen as we do. That would mean their numbers would inflate to about:
- 560 gun deaths a year in the UK.
- 450 gun deaths a year in Japan.
If they had as large a population as ours, their numbers would inflate to about:
- 2,800 gun deaths per year in the UK because 60 million = 20% US population.
- 1,080 gun deaths per year in Japan. because 125 Million = 41% of US population.
SOMEWHAT INTENTIONALLY RHETORICAL QUESTIONS:
- Why do they only kill between 10-30% of the people Americans do each year? If they have the same "tools" as we do, and the same population, shouldn't their numbers match up?
- Do Americans just get angrier than the Japanese and the British? Are we just a bunch of hotheads who kill people more readily than folks in these other countries, regardless of what tool we use to kill them with?
- Do British and Japanese criminals not understand their populace is unarmed and they could get away with everything if they just had guns? Are their criminals just stupid or do they also have less access to guns? Do their criminals think a gun makes crime more dangerous and avoid using them?
- Why the hell are we looking at assault weapon bans and gunshow loopholes if handguns are 90% of the tools used in gun crimes, and most federal inmates jailed for gun crimes got their guns from family, friends, theft, or drug dealers?
• http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/publications/Firearms_Report_10.pdf• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States
Let me end by saying that any student who has a paper to do and starts with Seven's commentary here (and the links) is off to a good start. He raises some good points, and presents us with some thoughtful questons.
- Mark
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